tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8424060401701893376.post8346000483478607958..comments2024-03-28T06:41:55.753+00:00Comments on Crafted Software: Beyond the manifesto: The Software Craftsmanship AttitudeSandro Mancusohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02110812790722611225noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8424060401701893376.post-52173587809475300132010-10-19T08:47:26.426+01:002010-10-19T08:47:26.426+01:00@Sandro Mancuso Wow, thank you :). I'm glad th...@Sandro Mancuso Wow, thank you :). I'm glad that you found something interesting in what we do.<br /><br />Maybe we can help each other. I started following you on twitter as well, so let's keep in touch, shall we?Alexandru Bolboacăhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16273431574076951578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8424060401701893376.post-91468879239603728442010-09-15T13:58:15.809+01:002010-09-15T13:58:15.809+01:00@Alexandru
Absolutely. I didn't mean that emp...@Alexandru<br /><br />Absolutely. I didn't mean that employers and customers shouldn't be involved in the process. In fact, they have to since they will be the ones to benefit the most. My point was that sometimes we try our best to help, proposing improvements and delivering the best software we can. Unfortunately some employers are just not technologically mature enough to appreciate that. It's our job to help and do more, but sometimes we can't help those who don't want to be helped. But as you said, we should do whatever we can. <br /><br />Yes. I haven't mentioned code retreats and dojos specifically. I briefly said that user groups in general promote some "code activities". I love the idea of code retreats and dojos. The idea behind the London Software Craftsmanship Community (that we just founded) is to promote this kind of events in the future. We are still trying to organise ourselves and very soon we will have our first meeting.<br /><br />I came across your blog post some weeks ago and found it very good. That's why I started following you on Twitter. I should have left a comment as well. :-)<br /><br />I like what you are doing in Romania and also watched Corey Haines presentation in full. Thanks for sharing that. It was really good.Sandro Mancusohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02110812790722611225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8424060401701893376.post-41043277488118653912010-09-15T11:15:31.739+01:002010-09-15T11:15:31.739+01:00@ActivelyLazy
I completely agree with you. I was ...@ActivelyLazy<br /><br />I completely agree with you. I was coming from the developers point of view when I mentioned that it's not the employer's responsibility to provide training or some sort of environment where employees can improve their skills. <br /><br />As you said, it's on the employers' best interest to keep their employees sharp and motivated. If employers do that, it would be a win-win situation. <br /><br />Encouraging companies to do more is definitely part of our job. It's easier for a technology company to understand the advantages of "doing more", as you suggested. However, non-technology companies, may struggle to understand the real benefits of it.Sandro Mancusohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02110812790722611225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8424060401701893376.post-38151475629894971722010-09-15T10:46:52.779+01:002010-09-15T10:46:52.779+01:00@Gurty
"There is a senior surgeon present t...@Gurty <br /><br />"There is a senior surgeon present to demonstrate to them, give tips or to take over for very delicate or complex parts of a procedure."<br /><br />That's exactly the model of the software craftsmanship where apprentices and journeymen learn from a master. This is perfect. But at the end, you are "paying" for a good service that is enforced by the supervision of the senior surgeon.<br /><br />I believe that my point was more like just having apprentices performing the surgery without the supervision of a senior surgeon.Sandro Mancusohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02110812790722611225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8424060401701893376.post-27380947389995391402010-09-15T09:34:15.192+01:002010-09-15T09:34:15.192+01:00I agree partially with your comments. If we look a...I agree partially with your comments. If we look at software as a craft, it's our (the developers) duty to define standards for professionalism and to raise the bar. This doesn't mean that employers shouldn't be involved; they should take part in the effort, but until we convince them we should be doing whatever we can.<br /><br />Also, you failed to mention code retreats, which are in my view the best type of learning event for a community.<br /><br />Shameless plug: I've written an article similar to yours and I think it's a good companion to yours <a href="http://www.alexbolboaca.ro/wordpress/my-take-on/software-craftsmanship" rel="nofollow">http://www.alexbolboaca.ro/wordpress/my-take-on/software-craftsmanship</a>Alexandru Bolboacăhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16273431574076951578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8424060401701893376.post-33882710953519087472010-09-15T08:58:41.399+01:002010-09-15T08:58:41.399+01:00Great post, as always, Sandro!
I'm not sure I...Great post, as always, Sandro!<br /><br />I'm not sure I agree that employers *shouldn't* be concerned about training. I think its in an employers interest to help their staff improve - both in terms of retention and helping people develop.<br /><br />You're absolutely spot on that it isn't *only* the employers responsibility, though. I think its up to all of us to try to improve our craft. This means developers need to take a more proactive approach to learning and not just "waah waah my employer never sends me on training courses".<br /><br />Some are cheap, why not pay for them yourself? And as you say, there are many excellent ways to learn that don't need any money at all - just time.<br /><br />I do wonder though how much of "raising the bar" is also down to encouraging companies to do more? If companies were more proactive in setting up tech libraries, encouraging devs to blog, working on open source projects in their spare time, attending dojos and other community events - that would surely also raise the standard of craftsmanship?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8424060401701893376.post-67136974835111708722010-09-15T07:44:32.994+01:002010-09-15T07:44:32.994+01:00"Would we pay a doctor to learn while he cut ..."Would we pay a doctor to learn while he cut us open or give us a diagnosis?"<br /><br />This is exactly how doctors learn. Let's take a look at surgeons. The theory is taught in school, but once they're qualified they will be sent into operating theatres to perform real operations that they have not previously experienced. There is a senior surgeon present to demonstrate to them, give tips or to take over for very delicate or complex parts of a procedure. It's a bit like pair programming. <br /><br />When they want to specialise, they are sent on courses, paid for by their employer, to learn the theory of new areas. Then they can be sent in to test their new knowledge on more unsuspecting members of the public.<br /><br />The very best, or at least keenest, surgeons will often study books to learn about new areas, or stay after work to watch (or help) with operations they are not familiar with.<br /><br />Overall, a good analogy. I think a software developers could learn a lot from doctors.Gurtyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00766285336419919131noreply@blogger.com